why do they always start the sport women before beginner men

[billmania]

There is always this big, race-deciding log jam in the single track section. It sucks for the guys to be stuck in "traffic", and it just HAS to suck for the ladies to be getting passed all the time.

[Loren]

All I can say is that we must ride with different women.

[MtnBikerMi]

There is always this big, race-deciding log jam in the single track section. It sucks for the guys to be stuck in "traffic", and it just HAS to suck for the ladies to be getting passed all the time.

They should look at the lap times of the beginner men and women sport and if there is a pattern of one class being consistently faster the order should be changed. I was also one of riders who seemed to get stuck "in traffic", I know this is part of racing but getting past a group of 4 or 5 having a conversation in the single track is hard to do.

I am sure this is a touchy subject, but if we are in a beginner class and we are catching up to the women sport class and feel we are being held up, we should perhaps be racing in the mens sport class, problem solved?

[gossamer]

I am sure this is a touchy subject, but if we are in a beginner class and we are catching up to the women sport class and feel we are being held up, we should perhaps be racing in the mens sport class, problem solved?

I like this way of thinking.....

[pongomoto]

I am sure this is a touchy subject, but if we are in a beginner class and we are catching up to the women sport class and feel we are being held up, we should perhaps be racing in the mens sport class, problem solved?

I like this way of thinking.....

Agreed. But be careful because when you move up you may become traffic for the faster Sport Racer wave that starts behind you......it's like that in every class. Either way it makes you a better rider because you have to find creative and POLITE ways of passing.

[craig]

If you are referring to the Stony race this weekend, I agree that the setup makes for painful first laps. There is no "runout" before the first singletrack, so there is always a train - even within a specific class.

[mbmoehl]

I am sure this is a touchy subject, but if we are in a beginner class and we are catching up to the women sport class and feel we are being held up, we should perhaps be racing in the mens sport class, problem solved?

I like this way of thinking.....

Agreed. But be careful because when you move up you may become traffic for the faster Sport Racer wave that starts behind you......it's like that in every class. Either way it makes you a better rider because you have to find creative and POLITE ways of passing.

Just to get my gripe on, and this isn't directed at anyone in particular, but there were two standout instances where passing was asked for politely by my self and another rider in my class. The first one was in the roller coaster where passing is always difficult, but a couple opportunities came up, the group was asked again to pass in these sections, but there was not even an acknowledgment as to a yeh or neh. I have to give this group some slack, because they may not have felt comfortable letting someone pass in that section of trial and they shouldn't have to slow down or stop to let me by, but my fellow classmate a head of me was a little over aggressive getting around them, IMO.

The second incident quite a bit later involved another classmate and i behind an older racer in the pines. When i came up to him i asked to pass, and he said he was trying to do the same. Again he asked this gentleman to pass in a wider section, much wider than areas i've passed and been passed in, and the reply he got was "Good Luck." WFT!? As he passed he was forced off the trail, flinging twigs and sticks. A minute later there was a wide curve and i called out "On the right" hoping a slightly more direct approach would work, but none the less i was directed into the leaves by this guy as well. When i ask to pass someone, i don't want them to slow down, just share enough of the trail for a few seconds to let someone by.

I have to had it to one of the guys in my class for the best pass i've seen to date. I was the fourth rider behind him on the coaster and he was behind a very young rider, and being very patient. As we were climbing up and to the left, where the log pile is at-at the top of the hill, he took the uphill path towards the log pile, which is also the long way around, and booked it down the back side and gained the lead. Then i watched in shock and awe, still four riders back from the youngin, as he disappeared down the trail. Nice!

It is frustrating seeing the guys you race against gain a hundred yards on ya just 'cause your stuck, then trying to catch up juices all the energy right out of ya, but that's all part of XC racing. If ya can't handle it, stick to TT's. Sport women have earned their place in the starting line up, so the only viable solution, beside sucking it up, is starting the beginner racers much later. With 300 racers, it'd almost be a two day event, which isn't ideal for the promoters and volunteers.

[tsimms21]

If you don't like being stuck behind the sport women then race sport men. WOW! That was an easy solution. I should be in the U.N.

The other solution is to ride slower.

[jalopy jockey]

The fast sport women are faster than the slow beginner men. So how would the other way be fair? I could say the same about the slow 20 somethings beginner men I have getting stuck behind them they usually smell bad. The sport women and beginner women that I have encountered due to an early mechanical have always been nicer and easier to pass than the young guys.

There is a solution to the issue get the hole shot, and draft off of people you catch or catch you not people in your class. Then If your stuck at least your not loosing ground.

I know where I fall in the race pecking order. This year I pass next year I will get passed. I usually don't get the hole shot and get gapped by one or two sometimes more people, I just hope I can reel them in which I can usually do by the end of the race. From what I've found is very few people who get the jump at the line actually finish on the podium.

[billmania]

+1 for that dude passing people over the log pile. i don't know who that was, but i saw him do it at least twice...once to me


Yeah, there isn't really a good way to eliminate this problem, other than to run double-track for miles and miles, but that would ruin the fun of mtb racing. I guess you could re-design the trail to have more passing opportunities, but there again, you'd end up with everyone taking the path of least resistance, and having one part of the trail more worn than the other, i guess...
If there is one positive to the current situation, its that makes the race much more tactical, you have to concentrate on metering out your available power at just the right moment. I got it wrong and finished 7th when I was running with some higher placing guys for much of the race.

I too, got stuck behind that guy you were talking about that just wouldn't move over...the guy behind me called out to him twice, he still would not move over, so I took matters into my own hands, i cut one of the corners off short to get around him. That may not have been the most ethical things to do, but man, that guy had about a dozen opportunities to let us two by, and he didn't.

I agree, women have earned their place on the starting line, however, i just fail to see why they can't start, say, 30 sec behind some of the beginner men's groups. They would only be on the course for a few minutes longer than the current system, and we may not have this problem of running through traffic.
And again, this is the reason I moved up to Sport, but after 5 finishes in the bottom 3, I decided I’d stop being everyone’s “rolling chicane” (auto racing fans will know that term well), and go back to beginner. It’s a lot more fun when you have a legitimate shot at a podium.

[c0nsumer]

I agree, women have earned their place on the starting line, however, i just fail to see why they can't start, say, 30 sec behind some of the beginner men's groups.

I find it a bit bothersome how you position women so poorly throughout this thread. Please, get out and learn a bit about the world. Men and women, there will likely always be someone faster than you and gender has very little to do with it.

If you're a fast beginner, so be it. You'll catch the slower sport folks. Maybe you should move up instead of whining about what you obviously perceive as the slow, pitiful kitchen class.

[Nooge]

This really *beep* me off! The starting order should be, and for the most part is, based on typical finishing times for each category. The faster riders are started before the slower riders so passing between classes is kept to a minimum.

So if you agree to the above, then the facts below say that sport and beginner women should start after 19-29 and 30-39 beginner men. I will use the 2009 Stony Creek XC results as example here, but the same holds true for most courses. Here are the stats:
Category - No. of Racers - Fastest Time (2 laps)- Slowest Time (2 laps)
Beg. Men 19-29 - 12 racers - 1:14:11 - 1:22:29 (All 12 racers each had to pass 22 women)
Beg. Men 30-39 - 19 racers - 1:16:38 - 1:52:29 (7 racers each had to pass 22 women)
Beg. Men 40-49 - 12 racers - 1:16:05 - 2:17:56 (7 racers each had to pass 22 women)

Beg. Women 15-29 - 8 racers - 1:25:42 - 3:01:47
Beg. Women 30 & up - 3 racers - 1:27:07 - 1:58:55
Sport Women 24 & under - 2 racers - 1:24:42 - 1:28:21
Sport Women 25-39 - 4 racers - 1:19:58 - 1:28:27
Sport Women 40 & up - 6 racers - 1:28:47 - 2:01:46

EVERY Beg. Man 19-29 had to pass ALL (except 1) Beg. & Sport Woman! In total 26 beginner men had to pass 22 women. Many more had to pass 15+ women. That makes no sense at all! If sport and beginner women started after 19-49 beginner men then only a handful of women would have had to pass or been passed.

And I bet most of those women didn't like being passed that many times. And since the men passing were beginners they will not make good passes half the time, not due to ill will, but just lack of skill. I know at Pontiac Lake XC and Stoney XC there were women swearing at the men as they passed them in the single track. Both times I was in the top 5 of the beginner men 19-29, so by the time the latter men passed they would have been REALLY ticked off. I know there were complaints at both races.

And because it's so difficult for the beginner men to pass so many women, how quickly you can pass can make a significant difference in how you place. So there is incentive to the beginner men to make quick and dirty passes instead of loosing a bunch of time by waiting for a good chance to pass. If you lose only 10 seconds by being behind a significantly slower rider in the single track and waiting for a chance for a clean pass, then 22 women * 10 secs = 3min 40 secs. That is a LOT of time gained or lost by passing riders not in your class and it's just not fair.

[scat silvurz]

leg shavers certainly cry an awful lot, eh?

[ndebt]

They always start Elite, then experts, then sport, then beginner. This is the way it is always done. It doesn't matter the order, there will always be a faster rider held up by someone. If you don't like passing the women, the move and and ride with the next class up. The fast sport men encounter the expert women too. Just remember that you will never make eveyone happy.

[Paul Brown]

"EVERY Beg. Man 19-29 had to pass ALL (except 1) Beg. & Sport Woman! In total 26 beginner men had to pass 22 women. Many more had to pass 15+ women. That makes no sense at all! If sport and beginner women started after 19-49 beginner men then only a handful of women would have had to pass or been passed. "

22 passes, big f'in deal. Thats racing. No matter where or when you line up, you will be passing or getting passed. Makes for good fun.