CRAMBA: Holdridge

[jeffcolombo]

I think Mary Ann is bringing her extra chaps. I have a pair also to use. Not sure if I'm going to be running a saw. I just might be coordinating groups at first and then getting on the trail later then everone else.

I think we are going to have a good turn-out of people this Saturday, Team Sandbag, Hiking Michigan, Holly High Outdoors Club, new volunteers and the normal crew. We will have the trails cleared this Saturday. Weather willing! I'm hoping to have 6 crews with chainsaws out on the trails.

The gardening issue you talk about Krug, I hope will be to a minimal with the help of Shawn and what was discussed at the meeting we had in Feb.

That will give us more time to do trail work on trail days!

There is a lot of work to do on all 23 miles of the trail. We will need voleenteers! As far as time lines on what gets done and when will depend on turn-out. I will have an agenda that I will be working on for each trail day after this one. I'm already working on April's trail day.

On the calender I have a list of what to bring for this trail day.

DownRiverRat you got it all! We will have spools!

[jeffcolombo]

As far as riding? Not sure about after the trail day, before the trail thaws in the very early morning would be best. Every afternoon that I've been out there has been muddy. I am just staying off them period even though I want to ride real bad.

[Daveniz]

I'll be visiting MI in early April. Shall I bring my bike? I live in Arizona, so its a long way to bring my ride.

[jeffcolombo]

Daveniz I think it will still be to frozen/muddy in April. We are still having snow flurries and the temps haven't gotten over the 40's yet. But some like biking in that weather, not me. Your call.


Jeff[/quote]

[Josh McCreedy]

Ouch, Alden, ouch. Are you coming up?

[Josh McCreedy]

I re-read Krug's post about the undergrowth and it raises some questions for me. How many times a year should the growth have to be cut back? Are we not trimming aggressively enough (Gruber's especially)? How is the problem handled at PLRA, Highland, Poto, and others? Maybe these questions are moot because we simply haven't had the numbers to maintain so many miles of trail. No matter, I'm glad to see such interest and an increased focus on Gruber maintenance/improvements.

[Dan_Harrison]

Good question, Josh. One with no easy answer.
Pruning the corridor creates a "vegetation vacuum"-- a patch of unoccupied sunlight. Fast-growing species rush to fill the space. Usually, those species are invasives: honeysuckle, multiflora rose, autumn olive, buckthorn and so on. Two approaches-- one, prune them back to preseve the intimate, narrow singletrack experience, and commit to doing it over & over & over.
Or, whack the bejeezus out of them, roots and all-- making the perceived corridor wider. Ideally, you then transplant desireable, slow-growing saplings in their place, which will narrow the corridor again, and inhibit fast-growing invasives with their shade. The local manager might have suggestions as to which species to encourage-- often by thinning areas where they're too thick. Oak, maple, beech, cherry, and various evergreens, are easy to identify and move in 5-gallon buckets.
Dan

[Dan_Harrison]

As far as riding? Not sure about after the trail day, before the trail thaws in the very early morning would be best. Every afternoon that I've been out there has been muddy. I am just staying off them period even though I want to ride real bad.

From the sound of it, I'll leave the toboggan at home
I'll leave the bike & BOB trailer behind, too
My folding wheelbarrow can hold all my chainsawing gear-- sounds like the ticket.
Dan

[Diesel]

I re-read Krug's post about the undergrowth and it raises some questions for me. How many times a year should the growth have to be cut back? Are we not trimming aggressively enough (Gruber's especially)? How is the problem handled at PLRA, Highland, Poto, and others? Maybe these questions are moot because we simply haven't had the numbers to maintain so many miles of trail. No matter, I'm glad to see such interest and an increased focus on Gruber maintenance/improvements.

I think a big part of the problem is that Gruber's is so long and so demanding that many people who ride it don't finish, if they even attempt it at all. If I remember, most of the problem reports from last year were on the sections of trail after the bailouts. It stands to reason that if there isn't much traffic on the trail, it's going to grow in.

I've wished for a long time that the West Loop was the section that was 17 miles long, and that Gruber's Grinder was only the length that the West Loop is, if that makes sense. The whole trail system would be easier to maintain if that were the case...it would help take care of itself.

[jeffcolombo]

Well a lively conversation going on I see about Grubers and overgrowth. There are 2 problems with Holdridge as a whole.

1> The wild rose's that grow throughout all 25 miles of trails. Roses love to be cut down! They grow back twice as fast and taller. Dan has the right idea. See problem 2.

2> Volenteers to maintain all 25 miles of trails. plra has 11, potp17, highland 16 miles. On the average 6-10 people show up for trail days. Do the math. Trail days are 3-4 hours.

Not complining or looking for sympathy, rather stating a fact. We will have a discussion after this trail day about the problems and possible solutions. There are other things going on also so we will see how it all pans out during the year.

[Josh McCreedy]

Diesel, I think you're right on, Dan and Jeff, too. Seventeen miles of the West loop would be dreamy. I wonder, though, if Gruber's were better maintained, would its entire length see more traffic? Or is it the style of riding, regardless of trail condition, that makes people avoid it?
I truly can't anwer the question because I'm relatively new to this area and never rode the trail in its "intended" state. I've only ridden it when I've had to fight through the brush and dismount because my bars won't fit between the trees.

[KRUG]

I don’t find Gruber’s that technically challenging. What makes it a grueling ride is all of the undergrowth that makes for a bloody ride. If that trail was clean the entire distance it would be just fantastic. There are so many possibilities out there if we could just get ahead of the game and build more stuff. I know of a few very fun rock gardens potentials out there that I have plans for. The trail for the most part is very sound from the design aspect for erosion with just a few wet spots that need to be updated.

I can only dream about the possibilities if we don’t get more volunteering helping.


Krug
Holdridge Trail Coordinator

[Dan_Harrison]

Diesel, I think you're right on, Dan and Jeff, too. Seventeen miles of the West loop would be dreamy. I wonder, though, if Gruber's were better maintained, would its entire length see more traffic? Or is it the style of riding, regardless of trail condition, that makes people avoid it?
I truly can't anwer the question because I'm relatively new to this area and never rode the trail in its "intended" state. I've only ridden it when I've had to fight through the brush and dismount because my bars won't fit between the trees.

I haven't ridden Gruber's in a few years, so take this for what it's worth:
- people ride trails they like, and avoid ones they don't;
- people like trails that *flow*;
- peole like trails that give the sense of pleasure or accomplishment;
- the pleasure or accomplishment may be the view, the skill or effort required, the company of their friends-- lots of possibilities here;
- if the trail is an impediment to, rather than a means of, getting that pleasure, it's DOA.
If riders are avoiding Gruber's, something is breaking that logic. Regardless of the original cause, lack of riders + lack of maintenance = vicious cycle. Even the "hard core" riders who formed Gruber's original constituency will find other things to do.
Can Gruber's be saved? That will call for a lot of work, but it needs analysis first. The trail needs to be re-imagined with a stable constituency (who will both ride it and "own" it in maintenance terms) as its target.
I'll plan on working on Gruber's this Saturday, instead of West Loop, and see if that gives me any ideas.
Dan

[mr_opjones]

I loved Grubers Grind when i rode it last year. But I soon found out that I was one of the few. It feels great to have accomplished a very technical trail like that. But I do agree that it could flow a lot better than what it does now.

[mr_opjones]

Krug & Dan are you thinking abour re-routing a bunch of the Grind? Would there be a chance that the FRC could help out with some new features if this is what the plan is?