Fat Bike Trail Ethics

[Scotty]

someone enlighten me on how skiers pay for trail grooming, but fat bikes on the same trail don't?


If I go to a trails system in the winter and pay to ride my bike there, I'm paying for the grooming service too. When it comes to "donations" on public trail, I've never donated a single dollar toward grooming services, but I have occasionally used public trail to ski.

[dirt]

someone enlighten me on how skiers pay for trail grooming, but fat bikes on the same trail don't?


If I go to a trails system in the winter and pay to ride my bike there, I'm paying for the grooming service too. When it comes to "donations" on public trail, I've never donated a single dollar toward grooming services, but I have occasionally used public trail to ski.

I think people are referring to systems like the Noquemanon Trail Network in Marquette, where yearly fees give you access to the trail system and provide funds for that care/grooming of the trails.

But, this is not a business model we see in the LP, and in fact, the fees we as MTBers pay to State Parks, Metro Parks, etc, pay for those trails and the grooming done to them.

[Scotty]

someone enlighten me on how skiers pay for trail grooming, but fat bikes on the same trail don't?


If I go to a trails system in the winter and pay to ride my bike there, I'm paying for the grooming service too. When it comes to "donations" on public trail, I've never donated a single dollar toward grooming services, but I have occasionally used public trail to ski.

I think people are referring to systems like the Noquemanon Trail Network in Marquette, where yearly fees give you access to the trail system and provide funds for that care/grooming of the trails.

But, this is not a business model we see in the LP, and in fact, the fees we as MTBers pay to State Parks, Metro Parks, etc, pay for those trails and the grooming done to them.

yeah. sounds like this is all a non issue.

I'm going to up to marquette next week to RIDE MY FATBIKE on the Noquemanon. And I'm paying a fee to do it.

[RickPlite]

someone enlighten me on how skiers pay for trail grooming, but fat bikes on the same trail don't?


If I go to a trails system in the winter and pay to ride my bike there, I'm paying for the grooming service too. When it comes to "donations" on public trail, I've never donated a single dollar toward grooming services, but I have occasionally used public trail to ski.

I think people are referring to systems like the Noquemanon Trail Network in Marquette, where yearly fees give you access to the trail system and provide funds for that care/grooming of the trails.

But, this is not a business model we see in the LP, and in fact, the fees we as MTBers pay to State Parks, Metro Parks, etc, pay for those trails and the grooming done to them.

yeah. sounds like this is all a non issue.

I'm going to up to marquette next week to RIDE MY FATBIKE on the Noquemanon. And I'm paying a fee to do it.

try doing that on the Vasa and let me know how it goes. or save the drive and try it on the Muskegon State Park Ski Trail, you could try Pigeon Creek trail too.

[Scotty]

I would, Rick, if they allowed bikes. However, there are so many idiots walking in their skies at Pigeon Creek that I wouldn't ever want to ride out there.

Noquemanon allows bikes. People up there are enlightened.

[urbaindk]

I just read through this whole 4 page post, and just thought to myself, you know, it's raining today and we've had maybe 6" of snow all year. What on earth are you people arguing about.

[Sortaslow]

I just read through this whole 4 page post, and just thought to myself, you know, it's raining today and we've had maybe 6" of snow all year. What on earth are you people arguing about.

This may be the only indisputable fact in the entire thread!

[Di_bear]

I just read through this whole 4 page post, and just thought to myself, you know, it's raining today and we've had maybe 6" of snow all year. What on earth are you people arguing about.

The point is that fat bikes are still bikes, and will always be perceived as just another bike by non-bikers, so riding them where bikes are not allowed only does a disservice to mountain biking advocacy.

[jalopy jockey]

Totally not denying that, but I bolded the very important part of my post for clarification. Skiers pay for groomed trails. I feel it's not the right of other user groups to minimize that opportunity. A used trail is still a used trail.

Yes, but MTBers often BUILD their own trails, and the land managers and providers of grants often recognize the thousands of dollars labor as cash put toward the projects.

While many groups pay fees to support the maintaining of their trails, MTBers actually build their trails, and the investment of time/money into that trail building should be recognized.

i.e., the money that other groups put toward their trails in no way should be viewed as any more important then the investment of time AND money that MTBers put toward building their trails. Nor should one group have access that is viewed as more important then any others group right to access the trails.

There are MANY trails systems available to skiers that do not allow MTB at any time of the year. Even places like Stony Creek only share about 1/2 of the XC Ski system with MTBers, the rest is exclusive to XC skiers.

Is there more than a quarter mile that is exclusive to XC skiers? The other half if for old men chasing little thier dimpled balls around.

[Nelg]

someone enlighten me on how skiers pay for trail grooming, but fat bikes on the same trail don't?


If I go to a trails system in the winter and pay to ride my bike there, I'm paying for the grooming service too. When it comes to "donations" on public trail, I've never donated a single dollar toward grooming services, but I have occasionally used public trail to ski.

I don't think it was ever said that fat bikers don't pay where it's required, just that where allowed we need to play by the same rules as the skiers. If it's covered in park fees, great. If a pass is required for skiing, then fat bikers need one too.

Not sure where the following posts about building being like cash vs. paying for grooming and minimizing use opportunities were going, I found them pretty confusing to the subject as well.

[KLydesdale]

I just read through this whole 4 page post, and just thought to myself, you know, it's raining today and we've had maybe 6" of snow all year. What on earth are you people arguing about. :)

This may be the only indisputable fact in the entire thread!

Noooooo... that just indicates you don't know about the many Nordic ski areas in Michigan that had 11 inches or more of snow on the ground last week. In conditions like that, you aren't going to be able to do much fatbiking unless some sort of packing/grooming has been done. These places still have have plenty of snow on their trails and you will be able to XC ski at some of them today if you want.

[Askel]

People up there are enlightened.

Perhaps, but I wouldn't go waving the UP around as a model for fatbike advocacy right now.

Things are tenuous at best right now with many ski areas in the UP trying limited access or tentative access this season to see how things work out.

The NTN trails currently have the most liberal policy I'm aware of right now.

The actions of a few bikers have already got us banned from at least one trail system in the UP (riding in freshly groomed soft snow leaving ruts). So far, no trail system has made the move to actually expand access yet.

[Scotty]

People up there are enlightened.

The actions of a few bikers have already got us banned from at least one trail system in the UP (riding in freshly groomed soft snow leaving ruts).

this point of view is why IMBA in michigan will always be hat in hand, beg for access organization.

[utabintarbo]

this point of view is why IMBA in michigan will always be hat in hand, beg for access organization.

As opposed to what. an aggressive, forcefully trespassing organization?

If you have a better plan, perhaps you should lay it out. Perhaps you have a secret source of funding in order to purchase all of this land (in the name of IMBA/MMBA) you wish to ride on.

[Wolverine]

I'm surprised that the issue of spring thaw riding hasn't come up. I know nothing about skiing so I don't have anything to say about ski trails, but I have been wondering about the impact of fat bikes during the spring thaw. My assumption, right or wrong still to be determined, is that fat bikes will make an appearance on the trails before skinny ones, particularly this spring when there's been so little snow over the winter for them to play on. It'll be interesting to see what trace is left behind by fat bikes during that time. Are they a viable option when skinny tires are leaving pizza cutters or if skinny tires should stay off the trails should fat bikes too?