Elite vs Expert distances-Addison Oaks XC-Opinions Wanted

[inasnit]

Last year, the CPS committee decided to break the Expert/Elite Women into separate categories. Historically, when there was only one category for expert/elite women, the Addison Oaks XC race course was set for the expert distance (4 laps). As the race promotor/planner, it made sense to me, now that there are separate categories, the Elite Women would ride the same distance as the Elite Men (5 laps), Expert Women would ride the same distance as Expert Men and so on ..

We also pay out to both Elite and Expert classes. Elite racers get paid $100/$60/$40 and Expert racers get paid $75/$50/$35

However, last year, after the Elite Women finished, one of the racers was very upset about having to do 5 laps - she was expecting to race the same number of laps as she had done in previous years, stating that they never do the same distance as the men.

I am of the opinion that you race a category-based distance, no matter your gender. If we allow the Elite women to race the Expert distance, then why separate them in the first place?

I'd like to hear some other thoughts on this.

[Alexg]

At the world cup level the Elite women don't do as many laps as the Elite men do. I guess it would depend on the course really. I would think you would want the overall race times to be similar. So if the men are doing 5 laps at 25 minutes and the women are doing 5 laps at 30 minutes they are riding another lap's worth of time. I get where your coming from but the expert men who are doing faster lap times don't have to ride as many laps as the elite women. Just my thoughts...

[dirt]

At the world cup level the Elite women don't do as many laps as the Elite men do. I guess it would depend on the course really. I would think you would want the overall race times to be similar. So if the men are doing 5 laps at 25 minutes and the women are doing 5 laps at 30 minutes they are riding another lap's worth of time. I get where your coming from but the expert men who are doing faster lap times don't have to ride as many laps as the elite women. Just my thoughts...

That's a good point, but on the flip side, World Cup races are handling just a single category, while we have multiple, which has a trickle down effect.

What I mean is, Elite Men do 5 laps, so if we drop a lap off Elite women, then they are doing the same as Expert women. Two categories, same # of laps. So, do we drop a lap off Expert women? Then they are the same as sport women. Etc etc. At some point, you either have two categories doing the same number of laps, or you end up dropping beginner women to a single lap, and then they are doing the same as the First Timers race (Addison has historically had single lap first timers race, open to any age/sex, as long as it's their first race)

So, in the end, we are stuck with a choice of A) men/women do the same number of laps across the categories, B) Women's categories do 1 lap less, down to a single lap for beginner women, or C) we have two categories for women that do the same number of laps.

We've never been able to come up with the 'right' answer.

[utabintarbo]

This is not unprecedented in other sports either. In Boxing, females have 2 minute rounds vs. 3 minute rounds for males. In Tennis, Championship matches are 2/3 vs 3/5 for men, etc.

[c0nsumer]

So, in the end, we are stuck with a choice of A) men/women do the same number of laps across the categories, B) Women's categories do 1 lap less, down to a single lap for beginner women, or C) we have two categories for women that do the same number of laps.

We've never been able to come up with the 'right' answer.

I personally think that A is the best option. It feels the most straightforward to me.

[inasnit]

This is not unprecedented in other sports either. In Boxing, females have 2 minute rounds vs. 3 minute rounds for males. In Tennis, Championship matches are 2/3 vs 3/5 for men, etc.

At Barry Roubaix, racers enter the 60 mile race, and both men and women do 60 miles.

At Lumberjack, racer enter the 100 mile race, and both men and women do 100 miles.

Sport and Beginner distances have always been the same for men and women.

This is where I'm coming from. Historically, at bike races, men and women have done the same distances. The "old model" of categories is kind of a red herring since there were 2 classes combined. With the absence of a dedicated "elite" or "expert" class for women, the default is to the 'expert" category - to allow an easier for women to move from sport to expert.

[dirt]

This is not unprecedented in other sports either. In Boxing, females have 2 minute rounds vs. 3 minute rounds for males. In Tennis, Championship matches are 2/3 vs 3/5 for men, etc.

Right, but as I pointed out, we are dealing with MULTIPLE categories. In each of the situations you brought up, there is only 1 for men, 1 for women. We are dealing with 4 categories, and if we take 1 lap away from each female category, we end up with beginner female doing a single lap. (would that mean first timer women don't have do to as many laps?)

Perhaps we'll just add a lap to each men's category, and call it the Utabintarbo rule, so people know who to blame.

[utabintarbo]

We've never been able to come up with the 'right' answer.

There are plausible arguments for both situations. In the end, there is no "right" answer. You make a decision, advertise it appropriately, and those that wish to race will race.

Were it up to me, I'd go back to 4 laps. I don't have a great argument for that decision other than women often tend to be held to a lower standard where physical exertion is involved (see previous post), and it's what "used to be" the case.

Hope that doesn't sound too sexist.

[utabintarbo]

This is not unprecedented in other sports either. In Boxing, females have 2 minute rounds vs. 3 minute rounds for males. In Tennis, Championship matches are 2/3 vs 3/5 for men, etc.

Right, but as I pointed out, we are dealing with MULTIPLE categories. In each of the situations you brought up, there is only 1 for men, 1 for women. We are dealing with 4 categories, and if we take 1 lap away from each female category, we end up with beginner female doing a single lap. (would that mean first timer women don't have do to as many laps?)

Yes, we are dealing with multiple categories, but the only one that seems to be at issue is Elite Women. All else is more-or-less set by precedent.

[dirt]

This is not unprecedented in other sports either. In Boxing, females have 2 minute rounds vs. 3 minute rounds for males. In Tennis, Championship matches are 2/3 vs 3/5 for men, etc.

Right, but as I pointed out, we are dealing with MULTIPLE categories. In each of the situations you brought up, there is only 1 for men, 1 for women. We are dealing with 4 categories, and if we take 1 lap away from each female category, we end up with beginner female doing a single lap. (would that mean first timer women don't have do to as many laps?)

Yes, we are dealing with multiple categories, but the only one that seems to be at issue is Elite Women. All else is more-or-less set by precedent.

But, what is the sense in offering two categories with the same number of laps, but different cash prizes?

[utabintarbo]

This is not unprecedented in other sports either. In Boxing, females have 2 minute rounds vs. 3 minute rounds for males. In Tennis, Championship matches are 2/3 vs 3/5 for men, etc.

Right, but as I pointed out, we are dealing with MULTIPLE categories. In each of the situations you brought up, there is only 1 for men, 1 for women. We are dealing with 4 categories, and if we take 1 lap away from each female category, we end up with beginner female doing a single lap. (would that mean first timer women don't have do to as many laps?)

Yes, we are dealing with multiple categories, but the only one that seems to be at issue is Elite Women. All else is more-or-less set by precedent.

But, what is the sense in offering two categories with the same number of laps, but different cash prizes?

They are not paid per-lap. They are paid according to their placing relative to their competition; Elite vs. Elite and Expert vs. Expert.

[inasnit]

This is not unprecedented in other sports either. In Boxing, females have 2 minute rounds vs. 3 minute rounds for males. In Tennis, Championship matches are 2/3 vs 3/5 for men, etc.

Right, but as I pointed out, we are dealing with MULTIPLE categories. In each of the situations you brought up, there is only 1 for men, 1 for women. We are dealing with 4 categories, and if we take 1 lap away from each female category, we end up with beginner female doing a single lap. (would that mean first timer women don't have do to as many laps?)

Yes, we are dealing with multiple categories, but the only one that seems to be at issue is Elite Women. All else is more-or-less set by precedent.

But, what is the sense in offering two categories with the same number of laps, but different cash prizes?

They are not paid per-lap. They are paid according to their placing relative to their competition; Elite vs. Elite and Expert vs. Expert.

But - if the Elite and Expert women are doing the same number of laps, what are the Elite women doing differently that warrants a bigger payout?

[utabintarbo]

This is not unprecedented in other sports either. In Boxing, females have 2 minute rounds vs. 3 minute rounds for males. In Tennis, Championship matches are 2/3 vs 3/5 for men, etc.

Right, but as I pointed out, we are dealing with MULTIPLE categories. In each of the situations you brought up, there is only 1 for men, 1 for women. We are dealing with 4 categories, and if we take 1 lap away from each female category, we end up with beginner female doing a single lap. (would that mean first timer women don't have do to as many laps?)

Yes, we are dealing with multiple categories, but the only one that seems to be at issue is Elite Women. All else is more-or-less set by precedent.

But, what is the sense in offering two categories with the same number of laps, but different cash prizes?

They are not paid per-lap. They are paid according to their placing relative to their competition; Elite vs. Elite and Expert vs. Expert.

But - if the Elite and Expert women are doing the same number of laps, what are the Elite women doing differently that warrants a bigger payout?

Riding faster, allegedly.

[c0nsumer]

I think that for this race's purposes we should do something like:

Elite: 5 Laps, separate men and women's categories.
Expert: 4 Laps, separate men and women's categories.
Sport: 3 Laps, separate men and women's categories.
etc.

Then, break it down by age as would normally be done. If there aren't five or seven people for each category, collapse it in with the one below it. Thus, if we don't get five or seven women actually registering for elite, then they'll do the expert race...

[inasnit]

Thanks for the conversation so far, but I'm really hoping to hear from some actual WOMEN on this topic

Really, I'd love to hear from some expert and elite women since that's who's going to be affected by this. I have no stake in it, other than being the one who gets yelled at for deciding one way or the other.